Managing T Level results webinar
This webinar offers guidance on using the Manage T Level results service. The webinar was delivered on 7 July 2020.
Chat or I'll mention we'll be recording this session to make available through the Support with Delivering T Level service, for those who aren't able to attend. So, um, just want to make you aware of that which I hope everybody's comfortable with. So first of all thanks very much for taking the time to to join this afternoon, um, and taking time out busy days - I know everybody has an awful lot going on at the moment. Before we kick off, I just a couple of points on running of this session, Sophie - I think, uh, so if you've mentioned about questions but just a reminder that we'll certainly welcome any questions on the content we'll be discussing over the next um 20 or 25 minutes or so. Feel free to add questions into the chat bar at the side of the over the um the Team's window, or raise your hand down but we'll we'll look to um run through the updates and address questions at the end if that's okay with everybody. Just also, if people could um remember to stay on mute when not speaking just so that we don't get any interference across um across um people on the call this afternoon. But I think that's it in terms of uh just the basics.
So firstly just to introduce myself, my name is David Scott, and I head up the the Corporate Digital Team in the Technical Education Directorate of the PTE. So some of you may have had a chance to attend a webinar we held earlier this year, I think it was the the very end of January, um where we um updated you on a number of digital services that we were either had had launched or in the process of developing. So one of those uh one of the two we focused on particularly was the Support with Delivering T Level service, um but providers that's the service which hopefully you've seen, which offers information uh guidance and support uh to providers in both preparing for and in a delivery of T Levels. So that's not an area i'm planning to focus on particularly today, but hopefully um some of you had a chance to use that and I'll find that helpful and we'll make sure that the the outputs from today's session are made available through that channel as well. But we're certainly seeing good, good levels of traffic on that which I um I think is an indication that, that it is proving useful for providers. I think we've had around 15, 15, 16000 visits to date since launched on that, and it's a service we're continuing to, to grow in terms of both the content of the site and through the ongoing user research we're doing with a number of providers. We're looking at uh constantly making sure that the design and scope of the site is fit for purpose and meets user needs. So I say I won't be covering, uh, anything in detail on a service today, um, but very happy to answer any questions at the end on that or any of the other digital services that we're not covering at the end of this session if time does allow. Um, and just, just a final point on the the research there um, Tirath will update on Results and Certification as well, but just to, um, say we are going through ongoing, uh, user research with providers, um, across a number of digital services - Support with Delivering T Levels, Results and Certification being two of those - so if it is something you'd be keen to be involved with and share your views and, and, um, allow us to test, um, the direction of travel of services and new designs with you then we would be very happy to hear from you.
So the the focus of today's session is going to be predominantly on the Results and Certifications service, um, so I think that I'll probably leave it there. I'll, I'll just at this point introduce you to Tirath Bal, if I may - who's the Senior Product Manager for the service area, and Tirath's going to lead you through an update on, on the progress of the development since, um, since we last spoke to you in January, um, and the service that we launched to providers a number of weeks ago, and he'll, um, walk through a demonstration of the system as well and following that will open up for any questions. Um, so Tirath, am I okay to hand over to you at this point?
Yep, sounds good. Thanks David.
Thanks very much.
So as David mentioned, I'm the Product Owner for this service. I'm just going to walk you through where we are with the service and then give you a bit of a demonstration, um, just to really sort of help you to understand, um, the flow of information across the service and how it works. Um, okay. So, very pleased to announce that since we last spoke to you we've now launched the service as we launched the service on the 23rd of June. When I say launch the service, I mean we launched it to providers. But because the service has been up and running for some time now, and awarding organisations or exam boards have been using the service since around April last year. But alongside the launch we issued a number of communications to providers including sort of direct emails to leads within provider organisations i.e. those responsible for sort of delivering T Levels, um, as well as to the users of the service. So if you're what we call in DfE sign-in world - an approver/a DfE assigned approver, which is really like a super user, um, you will have received an email as well - notifying you of the launch of the service. We've also obviously, we've done communications through newsletters and there are a number of articles on our support service now as well - Support with Delivering T Levels - so if you go to the, um, Assessment and Results section, I believe, you'll find a few articles, uh, supporting articles on the service, which i'm sure you'll find really useful. So in terms of the launch, of course, this followed months of research in order to inform the design of the service as i'm sure you'll know with, as with, all government digital services, um, we have, uh, sort of a number of standards to meet and, uh, one of the key standards is really to make sure that the service is really focused on users. So it involves a lot of user research and design iteration based on, uh, findings from research. So i'm really grateful to people that have participated in that research. Uh, just say this is an initial version of the service because of course we're looking to sort of build a service to meet critical time scales for the delivery of T Levels, but over time we'll continue to build on the service - to improve it and make sure it's really user friendly and and really sort of, uh, useful from from a provider point of view. Um, oh sorry, I've gone kind of got ahead of myself there - Um, so I mentioned earlier awarding organisations have already got access to the service. Now awarding organisations are responsible for registering T Level students on the service and that's you know really important message I want to get out there. So, um, when providers and users from within providers go onto the service, there is no need to register students on the service. The idea is that once you've registered with the exam board (or the AO), they will then use the system to register T Level students on there. So it's just a case of finding a particular student, and submitting information for that student in the service. And these are the identifiers listed there that, that the awarding organisations have already submitted in the system. Um, if of course, you've registered, uh, that student with the awarding organisation, so uniquely earn a number which is, uh, absolutely essential essential, in terms of our sort of underpinning architecture for the service - date of birth, of course, the T Level course, and any any codes that are associated with that and assessment entries as well. And in terms of provided actions within the service, I'll come on to that, but really it's about sort of verifying, um, whether the non-technical qualification components of the T Level have been completed.
So, i'm just going to move on to the next slide - hopefully that's changed for you as well. Just want to kind of run you through the high level information flow, and again, I think this is really important for you to understand. So, if we start at the beginning, there, top left. So the provider would register the student with the relevant awarding organisation, um, and, uh, and then as I mentioned earlier the awarding organisation will then go into this service. And, oh, I said a note to zoom into slides, uh, yeah I'll try to do that - give me a second.
Uh, I hope that's a little bit better.
Okay thanks. Um, okay. So as I mentioned - um, providers will register the student with the relevant awarding organisation. The awarding organisation will submit that registration data onto the portal. And then if we just focus on the provider, uh, swim lane for now - the next step for then providers, is to, in some cases, verify whether the minimum standards for English and Maths have been met. And it's only really for students that have studied outside of England and Wales and for those students that may have special educational needs or disabilities.
They'll also then be required to confirm whether the student has completed the industry placement. Um, and then the final bit really is, um, confirming the address to which ultimately these certificates and statements of achievement will be sent. And i'd say in most cases, the vast majority of cases, for each student all the users within providers will have to do is really, confirm whether the industry placement has been completed and then really input an address, um, because for the vast majority of students we'll look to pull Maths and English data from the learning record service, which i'm sure um many of you will be familiar with. Uh, so probably around for around 90 odd percent of students will get that data from the learning record service, which you can see in that swim lane at the bottom there. Okay, um, just going back to the provider swim lane - so there's a sort of decision, uh, a diamond there - so, if the student has left the course early, or um, hasn't completed all components of the T Level - it's no longer studying, um, then providers are required to request a statement of achievement. So this is, um, a statement which sets out all of the components that are T Level, uh sorry, that a student may have met as part of that T Level. So I really want that student to have something to show basically for sort of progression purposes, or um, showing to employers and that sort of thing. Um, once they've sort of left the course, if they haven't completed the full T Level. So it's really important that providers request the statement of achievement, um, and then that will be sent to, uh, the provider address that you've entered in that earlier stage there. Um, but of course, If the student is still on program, then there's no, no action required really. So that's the end of the process, um, in the top right there. So in most experiences, sorry, in most circumstances, uh, we expect really only these two processes, processes to be completed - where you confirm the replacement has been completed and you provide an address really. So, hopefully that'll be the case for the vast majority of students. Um, just come back down to the AO swim lane, the awarding organisation. Um, so before they actually register the student on our system, they'll approve, uh, the training provider for delivery. Of course, we within the ESFA approved providers for, from a funding perspective but AOs will probably approve you from a sort of delivery perspective.
And the awarding organisations will also submit any data in relation to the technical qualification. So i.e. the results for the core and the results for the occupational specialism, and they'll feed through into the system. And once we've got all that data from all these different parties we'll calculate the overall result, check if the student has obviously completed and passed all of those components and then ultimately issue a T Level certificate to, um, the sort of designated address within the provider. So that's, that's how the sort of information flows.
Okay, I'm gonna move on.
Okay, so in terms of required actions in the service - I've already touched on this - but just to reiterate, um, providers are required to confirm whether students have completed their industry placement, um, and in some cases, uh, confirm whether students have met the minimum standards for Maths and English. But providers will already be able, to be able to do this once the student has been registered by the awarding organisation. In future, there'll also be a requirement for any mandatory additional requirements to be confirmed - whether in terms of whether they've been completed or met.
In terms of time scales, this information is obviously required before the end of the second year of the T Level - so 31st of July 2022.
And in terms of that going back to that process flow, um, as we sort of calculate the overall results, um, at state where students don't, um, achieve the the full T Level - they'll be automatically issued with a statement of achievement. So there's no need to request it. The process for requesting statements really applies where, I guess, students have left the course early.
And the couple of points at the bottom there, i think are really important.
So student registration information submitted to AOs will be used to populate certificates. So of course, it's really important that the information that you send to awarding organisations as part of that registration process is really accurate. Because, of course, you know the name will appear on that final certificate. Um, and then just a point on the Learning Record Service - so we've started to do, we started to do some checks in the Learning Record Service and now that we've, uh, integrated with that system, and we did notice a few, uh, mismatches in some of the um student identifiers. Um, names, date of birth etc. So for the purpose of what we're trying to do here, it's, it, it's not going to affect us because, essentially, as I said, if you go back to that bullet point above we're relying on awarding organisations to send us that registration information. And therefore, you all need to make sure it's accurate when you send that to the awarding organisation. But what it does, is by ensuring you've got accurate information in the Learning Records Service - it just makes it easier for you at the end of the day. Because, then you won't have to sort of come in and do that step where you've got to verify whether students have met their minimum standards for English and Maths. So where there are any mismatches in any of these student identifiers, we of course won't be able to pull that data in from LRS, so it will just mean additional burden for you I guess. So that's one clear reason there to really, uh, look to maintain, uh, data within the Learning Record Service.
Okay, going to move on now. And, um, just do a very high level demonstration. I think I've got a, I've got any questions in the chat. I can't see that explain me a second.
Yeah, hi Tirath - just a question about the, the ULN and if at a point in time, it's realised that the the ULN is incorrect - um, are providers are able to correct that with the, uh, award organisation and, and have that corrected on the system?
Yeah, absolutely - that's the expectation really to, to, approach the awarding organisation and ensure that that ULN is correct. Um, because that's you know a fundamental identifier, um, for this system and it's really important to make sure that is accurate. So it's the route to go through is, is really that awarding organisation - that's exactly right.
Um, okay. Just bear with me - i'm gonna try and share a different screen.
Right, hopefully you can all see a start page for managed T Level results?
Yeah that's thanks, Tirath.
Yep, great, thanks.
So when you first access the system, um, you'll see a start page here - which sets out, um, what each of the user groups can do. So awarding organisations and providers. So as I've already touched on, awarding organisations will approve providers in the system, they'll submit student registration data, and they'll also submit assessment entry data and component result data for the technical qualification element of the T Level. There's also a step at the beginning there where they verify titles of T Levels as well. And from a provider point of view, as I mentioned, it's a case of sort of, uh, verifying whether the minimum standards of English and Maths have been met, and whether the industry placement has been completed. And there will be another bullet point there, which will say, um, statements of achievement, uh, can also be requested. Uh, but because they can't be requested at this point in time, um it's not on there.
Okay, uh, just in terms of that time frame - so statements will be available to be requested from the 10th of August. I'll touch on that again in this. So once you click on the start now button, and you'll be required to sign in. And then you'll be taken to the the home page, if you like, providers - the dashboard.
So and there's another sort of message, just at the top there - exam boards or awarding organisations, um, are responsible for registering each T Level, each student, each learner or student on a T Level course. So just to be clear there. So really the first step is to go into this top left tile, here - manage learner T Level records.
Okay, signed me out - just bare with me.
Okay, so when you click on that top left tile it takes you to this screen here - where you can really verify, um, completion of those components that I've touched on. So you want to click on this, this tile on the left-hand side. The right-hand tile just lets you update existing records that you've already submitted information for.
And then simply search, based on the ULN.
And then as I mentioned earlier in that process flow, the expectation is that for the majority of students all you'll really need to do is verify whether they've completed the industry placement. Because, in this instance the system has worked out that the student has met the minimum standards for English and Maths - so really you'll just see the screen, and then just simply need to hit, yes, Hopefully, because the student has completed the industry placement and click continue. And then there's a check and submit page where you can check all of the details, all of these identifiers that we touched on earlier - the provider T Level title, the status of the English and Maths. So as you can see there - it says, um, the student has achieved the minimum standard and the data was from the Learning Record Service. If we expand that tells you a little bit about the Learning Record Service there. And then the final bit to check, is just the placement. As you can see it's been completed there, and you've got the option to change it, if you need to. And if we just submit that, then we get a confirmation page. Um, so for majority of students I think this is all that's required really to confirm that they've completed those non TQ components. Um, but if we just look at another scenario so we can go back to the managed to the T Level learner records page, or we can just click on this, um, bar at the top - to take us back to the dashboard. Go back in, top left tile, back to add a new learner T Level record.
If we just search for a different ULN.
So in this instance, um, we don't have the data from the Learning Record Service. So, uh, you're required to confirm whether the student has met the minimum standards for English, Maths, or whether they've met the minimum standards for English and Maths as, um, as a student, as i'm sure you're probably aware that there are different standards for, uh, those students that are extended to have a special educational need or disability - uh, whereby, they don't need to get, don't need to have a full level two qualification and could actually meet the standard with, uh, a qualification such as an entry level three. Um, but if we just click on it - achieved, and continue. And then you'd go to the industry placement section, and again, simply hit, yes completed - and continue. Again, the check and submit page - to check all the details, the status and then submit. So that's it. Just talk through another scenario around, um, then students, then so, if I just go back to the same route - top left tile, um, into add a new learner T Level record.
Search for another ULN.
Okay, so in this scenario, um, we've pulled back data from the Learning Record Service, which suggests that the student, um, may be a student, uh, would send. Um, because they haven't got the full level two - haven't got GCSE grade four. Um, so really we need you to verify that. Um, so have they achieved the move standard, as a SEND student, um, had they not achieved. Um, or is the data wrong in LRS. So those those are the options. So we'll say, yes, they've achieved the standards as a SEND student. Click on submit.
And essentially you'll get a message to say that's successfully been submitted and what we'll do is we'll review that information offline do our checks in the background and get back to you with an email, um, to confirm that we've sort of reviewed that and accepted that information. And then users will be required to go back in once you've had that email communication from us - just to verify the industry placement status. So that, that second step in the process. I'm going to go back to the dashboard. Um, and then, so really once you've sort of confirmed the, um, non-technical qualification components in the system (as i mentioned before), it's a case of, um, confirming the address to which certificates and statements will be sent to. Um, so that's manage your organisation's postal address. So in this scenario, we've already got an address but, um, it's very straightforward in terms of adding address - you can just change the address, search for a postcode.
Brings up a number of options as you'd expect in a typical search address feature.
And you can choose the relevant one. If you can't find it, then you can click on the link below - can't find my address - and you can type in manually, just there - or continue and confirm it. Um, so, I'll go to the end of that journey, but I'll just, um, that's you know, very straightforward in terms of adding, adding an address there. I'll go back to the dashboard. Um, and the final bit is just around requesting statements of achievement. So for those students that leave the course early. So we know that they've left, having only completed, uh, some components of the T Level. Um, we can, users can request a statement of achievement - so they're going through this top right tile, here.
And we've got a message here to say that, um, so you must use the service to request statements for those learners that have withdrawn from their course. It kind of gives you a description of what what the state of achievement is there, um, but there's a key dependency here at the bottom - which I think I mentioned earlier - is you really need to notify the awarding organisation or the exam board that the student has withdrawn, before you can request a statement of achievement. So that's another key step in the process. And once the awarding organisation has been informed, they can withdraw the student from the system and then the statement can be requested. So just hit continue here. And if we search for that learner record that we're looking at previously...
Simply check all the details are correct. Um, so you've got the ULN, name so on and so forth. We've got the technical qualification details now as well, so in this scenario the awarding organisation has submitted data, uh, on the core component for this student and as you can see they've got an a star. Um we've got the English and Maths confirmation that that we just did earlier, and then the industry placement as well. Um, and then, and then that's it I think it's just a case of, um, reviewing that information. The statement has been requested. So that's as that's really it, i think - a fairly simple process. I'm just going to bring up my slides again. Bear with me a second.
Okay, just to sort of wrap up then, and talk about next steps.
So, um, we're looking to have the whole end-to-end minimum viable product ready by middle of August. So to include, um, the appeals functionality for awarding organisations. So that's the final bit that we're sort of bolting onto the service. Um, as I think I mentioned earlier, providers will be able to review component results and request statements from the 10th of August. So, you'll be able to review, um, what the Maths and English information - you'll be able to submit that from now. But in terms of reviewing any technical qualification component results, um, users will be required to go through that statement of achievement journey, which I demonstrated earlier. And then you can see the sort of TQ component results that are available. Um, and then from September onwards, uh, well as i mentioned earlier - we'll continue to build on the service. This is an initial version. Uh, we need to prioritise some areas. Uh from an awarding organisation perspective, uh, we need to sort of capture data on occupational specialisms, and there are various other things to do as well, uh, for awarding organisations. But we do expect to make, uh, further enhancements for providers as well. Um, so we'll be, uh, sort of introducing, um, new data fields for the industry replacement, um, to understand the models being, uh, that have been adopted as part of the industry placement. Um, and that would be a sort of an optional thing. Uh, if a model has been adopted, um, but also we really want to look at trying to make it easy and trying to get, um, a bulk upload facility in there. So at the moment - as you would have seen - um, you having to go in on a one by one basis for students to record component results. But in the future we'll make it easier to sort of allow you to submit data in bulk. So that's I think those are two of the key things on the horizon in the coming months, but, um, we're probably looking at sort of early 2022, i'd say, for those additional features. And just the final point around research - as I mentioned earlier - research really helps us to build these systems in a way that's really usable and useful to the end users. So if you want to get involved, please click on that link and we'll be in touch.
Okay, that's all I was going to say, uh, in terms of, uh, the service as an update and a demo. So we've got a question around the slides - um, yep i'm happy to, yeah we're happy to send the slides out afterwards, that's no problem.
See if you've got any more questions.
Yeah, I think we've got a couple, couple coming in maybe. So, hang on a second.
Wait, wanna see the little dots digging. Yeah we've got one now, yeah. Okay, yeah um.
Yes it's a good point. Thanks I'll the point about search, searching, uh, for a student in order to see the details and that's something that that, uh, we've we've discussed. And with Tirath as well in, in looking at and how we might develop that going forward.
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, yeah sorry, go on, David.
Yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah it's certainly something which, which we are, um, have in mind and we'll look at, um, working, working to further explore user needs and how best to make that, make that work, um, through, through the, um, sort of the development of new features beyond beyond the summer.
Just wait for people to type in their question. Feel free to just, um, come in, and ask your question - if that's easier, or just just type it.
So a question about about results days. So, um, notification of results will be, um, from the awarding organisation. so in this case, from Pearson to providers directly. So, that's the the route by which you'll receive notification of the the TQ element of, of, uh, of the results. And I think that will be the day before results day, um, that that typically, um, reaches you. Is that, am I correct, Tirath?
Yeah, that's, I think that's typically what happens, yep.
Yeah, but you know, as I mentioned - you'll also be able to see the TQ component results in the service, um, if you were to request a statement of achievement. Um, so that's, they'll be available there. Although slightly late, later I think. Then when you get them from the AOs. Yeah.
Hi Tirath, it's Amelia. Could you maybe explain to the schools and colleges on the call about when the service will be what they need to see the result on, versus when they'll get the results slip from AOs? Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, um, so the dates are, I think results day is 10th of August isn't it? So, um, awarding organisations, I think, typically send the, uh, results slips (as they refer to them) on the day before. I think there's some sort of question about whether that'll be the day before, or will it be slightly earlier now? Um, so i'm not entirely sure on the specific date, but typically how it happens on the day before. From our point of view, um, in this system there'll be a, they'll be available to view, um, basically on the, on the midnight of the 10th. So as soon as it turns 10th of August, uh, they'll be available to, to view basically. In line with when statements of achievement can be requested. Does that, does that cover it, Amelia?
Yep, yep. And so, but that's the TQ result isn't it? So next, so next year it will be slightly different for the T Level result.
Of course, yeah, yeah. So for the T Level result, um, absolutely so for the overall result, um, which, which we'll be responsible for, uh, providing. Because you know that's that why this service is here really, to calculate the overall result. Um, it'll be I understand, we're trying to align that with A Level results day, so we'll make those, uh, results available, then, to all students that have completed all of their components. And then certificates will follow in due course. So in terms of how we made that happen, and how that sort of displayed in the system that's to be worked out. But it's the responsibility of us and this service to provide the overall T Level result.
Yeah, okay. Yeah, thanks.
I didn't realise that you that's what you were getting at Amelia, but yeah hopefully that's covered it. Isla, so, you've got your hand raised.
Yeah, um, you..on one of the slides, it talks about the 31st of July, I think it was 2021, but it could be 2022.
As the last state to basically confirm everything about the T Level.
So, if, if next year on the 30th, on the, I don't know, let's say the 16th of August for a date - that's when the result comes out, how can we do it on the 31st of July on the system, if we don't have the result? Or am I just losing the plot?
Uh, no, so, so, um, from a provider point of view, you're required to confirm, um, whether the students have met the minimum standards for the English and Maths and industry placement. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.
And then we take that information, um, along with the TQ information from AOs to work out the overall result, uh, which will be calculated and issued in August.
And so that's why once that is done we can then ask for statements of results for those that don't finish. We can do that time during the year.
Absolutely, yeah, you can do that at any, any point. um
Right, okay, cool.
As soon as there's a, a significant component result available - you can request a statement of achievement. But when I say significant - I mean, either a part of the technical qualification or the industry placement. Obviously, if it's just the Maths and English, then
Yeah, okay great thank you.
So I can see a couple more hands. I'm sorry, I don't know who was first, but I can see uh...
Sal..Salman, is that? I can see a hand up for Julie Rainer, Tirath. But I can't see anybody else's hand up, myself.
Okay, thanks. Julie.
Hello there. Just going back to results, we have, in the past, had some situations. So if you take a technical diploma - especially with BTEC - they will send out their unit results for results day. So that'll be in line with the A Level results day. What they don't actually manage to do at the same time, is the aggregated grade, in a format that we can get into the system quickly enough to service results day. And that causes quite a problem for our students. So it sounds like you're going down the same route. If this, if the awarding body issues the T Level result for the qualification on results say, that's fine, they will get that, but I would perceive that they need their overall T Level results at the same time. So you need to probably consider pulling that forward a little bit, so that we have time to prepare the documentation and get it in our system to present the learners with an overall fate accompli their progression.
Does that make sense?
Um, I think, sorry.
Yeah, I think it does. I think, um, if i'm correct Julie, what i'm saying is what whilst the the the service itself will generate the overall T Level results, um, that will be available from midnight on results day.
Yeah, that's no good.
In terms of how you how you communicate that to your students, you'd want something that you can extract so you're prepared to issue those to students with results day itself.
Because, yes, that's what happens. So for all results, so A Levels, technical diplomas etc. etc. They all come back. They'll come out sort of the day before - probably some of the small rewarding bodies, a couple of days before, um, so we need to be careful that we're not replicating mistakes that they've made in the past with these, um, aggregated, um, processes.
Yeah, perhaps that's something we can we can take away. It might be a discussion we need to have with the awarding organisations and just looking...
Yeah, that'd be very, very helpful. Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, okay, thank you. Is that ok, Tirath? To perhaps pick up at one of the future AO network meetings.
Yeah, absolutely we'll take it away - yeah.
Okay, okay, any, any final, final questions?
Okay I'll take that as a note. In which case thanks, thanks first of all to Tirath for taking us through that and, and thanks for everybody for a. joining us, and for, um, helpful, um, feedback and questions today. Um, as Sophie said, we, um, we can certainly make the, um, slides available and we'll make uh, uh, the recording of the, of this webinar available on the Supporting with Delivering T Level service as well for the future reference, or for those who weren't able to join us today. Um, any final, um, points I've missed. Anything anybody wants to raise before we wrap up?
Not for me.
Okay in which case, um, we'll, we'll wrap up there but, but thank you very much, um, again everybody and hopefully we'll speak again at an update at some point, uh, again in the future.
Yeah, thanks all.
Okay, thanks very much.
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